Generally speaking, in tech, a degree is becoming less and less of a requirement to landing a job. I know for sure Microsoft does not require it, Google and I believe Amazon just within the last month released info that they do not require it either.
Now I will say, not requiring it, and getting through HR are two different things…while its not necessary, HR doesnt know a thing about what we do, and the bigger the company, and the more applications they have to deal with, the more likely they will use whatever metric they can to weed people out. Which is why you need to network, if you have a personal referral you can bypass the arbitrary NOPE pile that HR will put you in.
That being said, while I know I can work without getting my degree, I want my degree. It’s not just a piece of paper to me, its an acknowledgement of what I have learned with someone other than myself backing me up. Also, while I know I can (and probably will anyway, cause thats just how I am) learn CS on my own, this entire journey of getting into tech has taught me the importance of being a part of something, having others on my path to bounce thoughts and ideas off of, teachers and mentors to help guide me, etc. For me, its not just about the info, its the full breadth of knowledge that includes those who know more than me and have the experience to teach me more than I can teach myself.
I think it comes down to intent. If someone wants to get a degree just because they think it will help them get a job, thats not a good reason…it really is not required. If someone doesnt want to get a degree because of the cost and they dont see the value in it, thats a good reason, makes no sense to do anything you’ll regret.
So is your statement that you can become a web programmer without a degree, so a CS degree does not give a good ROI for that one very specific type of programming job? You did not narrowly scope your original comments in that way.
my bad , i should have be more clear and specific regarding that point. Yes i actually meant all along in getting to a specific field software or web development. It was only halfway throughout my degree that i wanted to have a career in web previously i had no idea what i really wanted to do.
Its not a good ROI for a specific type of job if that is what someone wants to do throught their lifetime.
But then again freecodecamp forum is about WEB . people who come here wants to do web
Prospective students should certainly be wary of predatory for-profit schools (a.k.a. “degree mills”) whether they offer a diploma or call themselves “bootcamps”. A good computer science program is extremely valuable in terms of short term job opportunities and income potential, but also provide personal and intellectual enrichment as well foundation skills and knowledge for building your career. A good computer science program should require mathematics, writing, technical communication, critical thinking, and physical science coursework as well as teaching computer architecture, data structure and algorithm design and analysis, compiler design, and concepts in computing languages.
It is possible to go through the motions of the best academic program and still not be qualified to work in industry (or simply not have the soft skills required for a successful job hunt). A program should prepare you for the incredibly broad field of computer programming rather than a specific job in that field. One of the hallmarks of successful post-secondary education is that the student is responsible for taking ownership of their own education. The school provides resources and structure. It doesn’t do it for you. Classmates in the same CS degree might graduate to take jobs as firmware designers, web application developers, or test engineers depending on where they put their time and energy.
It is definitely possible to get a job as a programmer without a formal education. It is also definitely harder, especially for the first several years. There are many reasons why college may not be the best option for an individual, and that doesn’t have to kill their dreams of being a programmer. There are skills that teaching yourself forces you to build, and those are valuable.
As a person who spent a lot of his life and money in university only to end up in a field unrelated to his degree. I can see some of your points.
I will also point out that the value of a college is beyond just the education. The infrastructure in itself is a highly valuable and difficult to simulate on your own, and if you devote yourself just the same, I don’t think you can fairly say self-study is always more valuable. Not to mention an environment to explore and test your capabilities and limitations. A lot of people found their passion in college, rather than knowing what they want to do
I can’t speak to every university. The big public university I went to has access to online learning platforms like Lynda, fully decked out computer lab for those studying interactive media, VR, and internet of things. Weekly seminars on cutting edge research, and graduate student presentation. Writing lab and career services that help you with your resume and work with recruiters. There are capstone project and research showcases where industry and recruiters attend and gives you natural opportunity to do face to face networking. Frequent recruiting events that you get notified for, industry co op for credit with tech companies near by, and interdisciplinary project with business to present business plans. Alumni networks of various kind, club, fraternity, college, major…etc. Most importantly a group of diverse peers you connect and with whom you forge relationships. I was a biology major, so I applied for grants that allows me to attend conferences where I can network and learn the newest research, as well as present my own research, and I bet similar things applies to CS students. Free/student discount for professional software are also great. The wealth of resources available to you is difficult to match, all you have to do is utilize them. Your investment is more than just for the education.
The same people that can achieve success through self-study and his own rigorous work ethic and network probably can also achieve success through attending college, more likely than not will have an easier path because he or she will have to ambition and drives to utilize all the resources available to him or her. So I wouldn’t encourage someone to forego college, because the investment is more than just classes and a piece of paper. Substitute for some of these infrastructures do exist, and it is possible to get a job without a degree, but it’s not easy. Your investment may end up being just the same if not more
I think every student should get a bachelor’s degree! For this you need to make maximum effort. To begin, you can visit this educational resource PapersOwl, where you can write your essay, this will be the first step to gaining knowledge. I think you will succeed. Never give up.
Self-taught seems to imply that there is no teacher, but that is not entirely true, especially these days. Self-taught does not mean a person sits at a computer trying to figure out everything by themselves with no teacher, although they could do that by randomly scouring MDN. If someone reads a book, they are being taught by the author, and if that author is a PhD in the subject, then that is a good education from what should be a reliable source. Likewise, when someone learns from a 10-year+ professional via a video course with Q&A and feedback, that is yet another reliable and credible education. In both instances there is a teacher. The decision comes from which ‘teacher’ to approach and learn from. Some become more well-known than others, and potential employers may be familiar with them and their courses and/or books.
I am not suggesting that someone who read all of those ‘for Dummies’ books is going to get the job, but carefully selecting sources to learn from might.
Young people are being sold the lie that going to university will get them a good job, and they’ll make more money than those who don’t. So nobody better say that a university degree isn’t meant to do exactly that or the whole of society ought to sued by its young people for false advertising.
Lots of unemployed millennials out there holding university degrees. Many of those who do find work aren’t employed in their field of study.
And no, I’m not talking about those who hold useless degrees. STEM field graduates have been sold the same lie. They spend 4 years+, tens of thousands of dollars, and for what? Why are we being told that the job market for software development is SATURATED if STEM is so valuable? Even com-sci degree holders are having a hard time. Why are ENGINEERS having difficulty finding work in their field? Talk to anybody who’s a PHARMACY graduate, and they’ll tell you the same story. Job. Market. Saturation. Things have gotten real bad in a lot of STEM fields.
Oh, STEM field is the real deal. It’ll get you a good job [sarcasm].
Turns out there’s no such thing as job security in any field. And if it is ‘secure’ and ‘pays well’, people are gonna flood that field until it doesn’t pay well anymore, and it’s no longer so ‘secure’. And no, STEM field is not immune to this, no matter how many years of university you gotta attend.
Choose what you enjoy. Don’t choose based on job market. Don’t buy the lie that doing X-Y-or-Z will guarantee you a cushy, secure job. Nothing is secure. The only security you’ll get out of life is knowing that at least you’re doing what you love. If you’re self-studying code, it means this is what you enjoy. Ain’t nobody breathing down your neck to get you to study and practice - because this is what you want.
It’s already evident today, but will become even more apparent in the future - the biggest benefit of going to college as opposed to self-studying is the connections you make and having access to professors/teachers/students with a wealth of knowledge and expertise. It’s quite obvious that it’s going to become harder and harder for college curriculums to compete with online courses, MOOCs and boot camps when it comes to technical skills. And that’s okay - colleges are not trade schools, they put a lot of emphasis on other important aspects of your development as an engineer.
Here’s the deal - code review and mentoring from people who know how the industry works is by far the most important part of learning to code. And at this point in time it’s next to impossible to get it online. You can get bits and pieces of it here and there, but it’s not nearly enough and comes with a lot of caveats. Even getting a study group together with a bunch of random strangers who enroll in the same online course as you is hard because of how bad people are at sticking to their commitments, when working with people they don’t know on projects they aren’t obligated to work on. College provides that environment and does a much better job of delivering the social/networking aspect, which is insanely important.
And yes, if you study hard and do all the right things you are guaranteed to get a good job in our field as a college student even before you graduate, if you are going to a good school. For lesser known schools it becomes harder and you have to do more of the legwork yourself, but it’s still possible. The job market keeps growing. And most people who apply for junior engineer positions are not very good, for obvious reasons. Just ask people who hire engineers for a living.
You are right about choosing what you enjoy and doing what you love. It’s gonna be difficult to flourish in this field without that and it’s gonna be torturous to keep doing it year after year. But not looking at the job market is silly. There has to be a balance here. I really enjoy wood splitting and i could do it all day, but there is no money in it and i can’t provide for my family doing it. So i had to choose something else that i don’t mind doing and focus on that instead.
It’s a process, you can learn to love the frustrations and the tribulations of coding. As long as you enjoy learning new things and solving problems you can learn to enjoy the less glamorous aspects of it, if you work on it hard enough I’ve seen plenty of people who are working as SWEs who hate what they do, yet refuse to get out of their comfort zone and learn new things and switch to another stack/field/domain. Sometimes it’s the money. Sometimes it’s the commitments and obligations. Sometimes it’s simply their character flaws.
So yeah, you don’t need passion and you don’t need love to get a job as a SWE. You just have to be a hard worker, you have to keep learning and you have to work on your soft skills. And you have to stop blaming others for your problems and take ownership of your life, take a backpack full of responsibilities, get it on your back and start grinding. There are no secrets, no guaranteed shortcuts… There is no magic. You are the magic!
Another thing tertiary education establishments don’t tell you is that you can leave school, get a job and learn what to do while getting paid. After gaining paid experience, you can bypass the bachelor degree (not all fields, of course) and go directly for a master degree as a mature student having worked in the field of the degree. Work experience was used in lieu of a bachelors when I applied for an MA.
I’ve seen plenty of people who are working as SWEs who hate what they do, yet refuse to get out of their comfort zone and learn new things and switch to another stack/field/domain. Sometimes it’s the money. Sometimes it’s the commitments and obligations. Sometimes it’s simply their character flaws.