Should I even start?

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I’ve been in this same boat. The only answer is to just jump in and do some stuff and try things. Remember, JavaScript IS a programming language, and building web apps from HTML, CSS, and JavaScript makes you a developer.

That being said, if you want to eventually land a job, I would try to discover what area of development you are most interested in. For me, I found that ‘Front-end web developer’ pretty much summed up everything I’m interested in.

Also, keep in mind that while doing web development usually does involve design to a large degree, it is not the same as being a web designer. Find out what you love to do the most and dig into that in every spare moment.

For me, I have two jobs, and 3 kids - So it meant that when I have spare time, I can choose to either log onto youtube, freeCodeCamp, etc. and do some learning and practicing, or I can turn on Netflix or a game and tune out the world. Choosing to invest in your interests will never be a waste of time. The more you practice and try the finer that laser will become and doors will begin to open.

I am a technical support analyst with no prior experience in the Computer/IT industry, but over time, I found that I really enjoy building web pages, and web apps, so that’s where I focus my energy. I am now the acting Front-end web developer for a software company and work with developers and software engineers who have masters degrees in Computer science. In contrast, I have a high school diploma as a home school student and no college degree.

I don’t design, that’s what the company’s graphics designer does. I just take the designs and write the front-end code that makes the designs work. I do need to be able to converse with the full-stack and back-end developers so that usually requires additional research but that’s par for the course in this industry.

To sum up, don’t be discouraged, just jump in and try. It would not be a waste of your time to go through every road map that freeCodeCamp has to offer if nothing but to help you find what you are really interested in.

Being an IT guru is not a requirement, but not a waste of time either.

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I’ve been thinking on that paragraph. There is some truth to that, that on the surface it would seem that IT people (dealing with hardware) will probably have more job security than programmers. You will always need people to hook up the servers and physically maintain them. Software on the other hand is easily outsourced. And some of it can be automated.

But one might also argue that the need for web pages is growing exponentially. And a lot of software is already outsourced so most of the people left are the once that can’t or don’t want to outsource.

But as much as you seem to see IT as a rosy career field, you also seem to not be that interested in the hardware side of things.

Instead of thinking about what you could do, think about what you want to do. You seem to feel that you don’t have an aptitude for the hardware aspects of IT. If you also don’t have an interest, then I wouldn’t think there is a chance there. As a music teacher it’s nice to see natural talent, but I’ll take an enthusiastic practicer over a “natural” any day of the week.

So, what do you want to do?

Both really, I would also love to learn how to develop apps, but every app developer I know has recommended I learn Html and Javascript first.

HTML, CSS, and JS are the primary languages for web pages.

It depends on what you mean by “app”. For me an “app” is for mobile devices, but now it is being used for any program.

If you want to learn to write web pages, the fCC is an awesome place to start.

If you want to write mobile apps, then things are a little different. Android devices have their own language that is an offshoot of Java. (Note: Java and JavaScript have very little to do with each other.) For iPhones, etc., you would have to learn Swift or Objective-C.

There are some frameworks/libraries to allow you to write mobile apps using HTML, CSS, and JS, but they tend to be laggy and don’t work as efficiently. One there is another way to write mobile apps, React Native, that runs the app natively so it has the same outstanding performance of an app written in the “correct” language. This looks like an up and comer and may be a big thing in the future. If you go that route, then fCC would be a good path because they lay a good foundation for HTML, CSS, and JS and have a section of React that will be a good transition into React Native.

If by “app” you mean a computer program running in Windows, etc, then I think you might be better served learning something like C++. But fCC won’t help you with that. Would it hurt? Maybe yes, maybe no. First of all, in that respect I mioght argue that HTML and CSS are all but worthless - I don’t even consider them programming languages. Javascript is a gentle introduction into programming in some respects (but tough in some others). But one could also argue that JS is so light and loose in some things that it can lead to bad coding habits that will bite you in stricter languages like C++ or Java. But maybe it’s a good way to get your feet wet and see if you like it. Writing beginning programs in HTML, CSS and JS is a lot more satisfying than writing one in Java - there is a much quicker payoff.

But I think you really need to decide what exactly you want to do. “Programming” is too big of a category. You have to narrow it down. Pick a path and come up with a plan. Even if it needs to be adjusted later on, it’s better to be working towards something.

Just some more thoughts.

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I’ve been working on my portfolio challenge and actually made a post on Codepen about it. I found that filling the page with little things I worked on in the past (mostly game mods atm) made me realize I knew a lot more than I thought.

Every time I can’t get the format just right, or can’t find the function that does just what I want, I tend to get very frustrated. I’ve given up on learning so many times that I would be at an advanced level by now if I stuck with it back then. The best way for me is to do it as long as I’m enjoying it, then take a break for as long as I need.

This very morning I was wondering if making a newbie blog was even worth it anymore, since so many people are coming into the field now and doing the same thing. I think I’ll just do it and people can decide themselves whether it’s worth checking out. I made the tag canireallydothis for my post before, seems appropriate.

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Did it make you look like you had your backend on your frontend?

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image.png468×635 31.6 KB
I would first like to tell you that web coding has virtually nothing in common with IT. It is important however to understand how computers, the web, and IT work, but just in a general FYI understanding.

From your post, I think that you have had some bad experiences simply because you didn’t understand what development is.

I started out as an “IT nerd” in the Navy. While I learned and worked every IT position possible, I found that fixing IT issues was boring.

Once I started learning about websites and how they ranged from simple to massively complex, I did more research. I started learning code. The same as you, I started learning HTML and CSS.

I will admit that once I learned those 2, I got bored. Web coding didn’t grab me until I started learning JavaScript. Once I started getting in to that, I realized the flexibility and power that JS has.

I have been a developer since the late 90’s and have rocked and rolled through the massive transitions in code that makes the web. I have adult ADHD and I can promise you one thing, you will never work on the same project twice.

Every single project that you work on as a developer, will always have some component that you have to create. This gives you change every time you work. All of this happens without you having to know IT or even keep up with it. In reality, IT is trying to keep up with web technology.

Web development gives you the freedom to work when you want to, take care of your children, etc.

The one thing that you HAVE to have is self-control to stick to a schedule that you need to complete a project. That is literally the most crucial thing. MAKE YOURSELF STICK TO A SCHEDULE!!

I started out as a developer charging the people in my community about $15 per hour. That is really not worth your time. Once I started working remotely, I was able to increase my pay per hour. I went from the $15/hour to where I am at now.

I take payments in 2 different ways. A lump sum per project or roughly $115 per hour. I give more options for pay to my customer, but it equals out to the same. In a nutshell, I went from $15/hour to $115/hour in under a year.

During that first year I was literally taking online courses and working on them about 10-12 hours a day. I learned a lot and then was able to implement what I learned during the following year.

So, in a nutshell, I started and then studied constantly for almost 1 entire year. My pay went from $15 to $115 per hour. This is how I did it.

DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME WITH FCC. There are too many reasons. The main one being that they jump from concept to concept without the info you need.

I don’t get any money for referencing this, but pay for this course and you will be employable when you finish it. It is totally at your own pace, so you can work around your kids and what not.

It is made for people that know absolutely NOTHING about making websites to creating a site that uses current technologies and also works with a database. This is predominantly what employers look for.

Since my pay increase, because of this training, allows me to work 2 projects every quarter, which is averaging about $13K per quarter. I never really work more than 25 hours per week to be able to sustain this income.

I hope this helps you. Don’t get discouraged. You are just using the wrong medium to learn. Take the course I suggested, and then, come back and do FCC for the certs.

Here is the only course I took to start working:

I hope that I have helped you. Please feel free to contact me on here if you need ANY help.

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I have no idea why the text size is all messed up.

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Amazing use of internet… and child power. Really enjoyed the stories. Kudos to you both, hope you one day get promoted, Tim. :slight_smile:

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Hello @Fuzzymouse, These days self-taught developers earn as much as or even more than computer science college grads. Google it: famous programmer who never went to college.

All you need is 50 mins to an hour @ day. Typical college classes are 50 minutes, 3 times @ week @ course. Do that and in 3 months that’s one semester class.

My story: I am 50 years old now. 25 years ago I was a self-taught programmer but couldn’t get a job to save my life. Got discouraged & I went into other industries. I dabbled a little her and there in website building over the years. But in 2007 I got more discouraged and allowed my websites to expire.

A long story short: I got interviewed for a job in 1 field and the HR manager called me after the interview. A 2nd interview someone else about another position in /programmer. This is the long needed break I need.

Now 3 years later I managed to get a track record; the software development arena has changed dramatically for self-taught developers. I’ve had a few interviews but that’s expected. I’m encouraged.

So, my suggestion:

1: Continue and/or complete FCC.
2. Create a portfolio website on a free hosting site if you don’t already have one (00webhost.com) is good.
3. Develop 1 or 2 web applications in JavaScript, HTML, CSS

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…In the meantime I already enrolled into the program that @geekysmurf just suggested. Let’s see where it takes me!
(90% discount to a mere $15 CAN)

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Thank you all once again for taking time to answer! I would like to reply you all personally, but I’m extremely strapped for time this week, so I will just address couple questions quickly, but I really appreciate all your stories and I can’t even put it to words how inspiring they have been :smile:

Regarding what I really want to do - I am more drawn to website and web and mobile app development. Development more than the design itself part, although I have a BA in architecture, so art and design are not foreign to me. And when it comes to mobile apps, then android not iPhone. So far I have had no experience with back end development, so I can’t say for sure yet which end I prefer :wink:

You are right, I don’t find hardware exciting at all, I just worry that even when you apply for a software related job, many employers seem to expect you to also be a hardware expert, or at least will give the position to a candidate that also knows hardware well.
The thing is I live in a small town, there are almost no programming jobs here. Even for the nearest cities I would have to commute minimum 2 hours a day and the only few jobs I saw that were available had a long list of requirements, mostly demanding a computer science degree, 2+ years professional experience in the same field even for an intern or apprentice positions and a looooong list of programs some of which I had never even heard of.
It looks like my only chance would be to go the online only job route.

@geekysmurf - Thank you for the suggestion, I signed up for the course you recommended. I think actually someone might have recommended that course to me a long time ago, but it was $200 then and I couldn’t afford it. It’s 95% off at the moment and only $10, so it was pretty much a no-brainer :wink: I looked at some of the beginning intro videos and it looks really good, I’m excited :smile:
I just wanted to ask you - after you took the course, how did you find your first projects? Did you have to go and work in a local company? Did you start your own online company? Did you go to a website to find projects? I’m a little lost on how to get started. I thought about going to some local mom and pops companies and offer to fix their shitty websites for free in order to get experience and build up portfolio.

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That was hilarious and the two of you are awesome!

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I started out by making a couple of my friends’ sites for free to add to my portfolio. Then I bounced around through sites that list web projects and started taking PSD files and making them into websites. After that, I did a 3-month paid internship with a media company.

I struck out on my own after that because I never wanted to be in a traditional workplace. I have adult ADHD and I get really distracted by other people, random noises, and people that would break my concentration when I am in “The Zone”.

I realized very quickly that I needed to be freelance or work in positions that would allow me to be a remote employee. This is way more common now, so it isn’t really that hard to find a remote position. I even worked for a digital agency in Germany from the comfort of my home and wore sweats the whole time. It was fun doing video conferencing where all they could see was my button up shirt, but didn’t know that I was still in sweats. Lol. It made me way more comfortable with the chats.

One thing that you do NOT WANT TO DO is something for free. When you offer to do free work, people tend to think it’s a hobby for you. I charged for everything but also gave some discounts on things that I wanted in my portfolio.

People are weird. It was hard getting work when I was charging around $500 for a static html site. Once I upped my fee to roughly $3k per site, I started getting more work. I know it seems crazy, but when you charge more, it makes clients realize that you are actually a professional and they tend to trust you more.

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People are weird. It was hard getting work when I was charging around $500 for a static html site. Once I upped my fee to roughly $3k per site, I started getting more work. I know it seems crazy, but when you charge more, it makes clients realize that you are actually a professional and they tend to trust you more.

This is true only if you have had established yourself in the field. A newbie with no track record to show won’t be in the position to set a high asking price from day 1.

With regards to free work, depending on the circumstances, sometime it is necessary to do some free work in order to land the next paid gig - it certainly won’t be a ‘NEVER EVER’ situation, IMHO.

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Yes, both of you guys @geekysmurf and @atan4583 are correct.

I started my accidental business by doing FREE web dev stuff to non-profits, churches, elementary school. I basically just trying to build up my portfolio of “real clients.” – which led to landing a big client who saw my work… that was 17yrs ago, and they’re still my client up to today.

I also get what @geekysmurf is saying… sometimes the low-ball clients are the hardest to please, the slowest to pay, and the most demanding of your time. They suck up your time and energy! Compare this to the high-end client that pays on time, pays more, is easy to work with, and very professional.

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@ atan4583 – I disagree. I was just starting out and took a couple of online courses which had you make a couple of things that were tangible that you could throw in your portfolio when you finished them.

I also built a few different Bootstrap sites since Bootstrap is really simple. Once my portfolio showed some skill, I was able to start chagrin $500/ HTML site. I was NOT established and there was no “track record” of my work when I got my first client.

$500 for the site, not established, and showing no track record.

So saying that my experience would be “true only” with those things sounds like you are saying I made it up. You may have had a harder time than I did, but that doesn’t make my experience any less true. Yes, I got that from day 1.

Anyone can do what I did, with a good portfolio. It can be filled with things that you create in a class or you can just Google for web development portfolio ideas.

Here are just some examples:

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So saying that my experience would be “true only” with those things sounds like you are saying I made it up

I’m sorry you felt my comment infers you made up things, when I was merely stating a beginner with nothing to show won’t be able to command a high price tag like $3k.

You also just wrote you built something (of good quality but not from real paid gigs) to show prospective customers when you had a $500 (a relatively low) asking price. To me, having something (good) to show people is having established yourself in the field and a track record - though that may not be at professional league level yet.

Anyhow, my sincere congratulations for your ability to command $500 for your first paid gig , and sincere thanks for sharing portfolio building ideas.

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“There just seems to be SO much to learn with html and JS already, but it seems to me that in order to get a programming job, the companies expect you to be overall IT genius as well - you know the one that fixes everyone’s computers, be it software or hardware issue, be able to figure out network issues with routers and so on.”

Think of “Software Engineering” and “IT” as two sides of a venn diagram. On the one side, you have Software Engineering which embraces the devs, QA, program managers, etc. On the other side of the Venn Diagram you have “IT”. These include functions like network engineers, DBA’s, Help Desk Techs, etc. In the middle you have the intersection between the two. Engineers need to understand the basics of networks, databases, etc. The same goes for how IT guys need to understand basic software engineering principles.

There is absolutely NO WAY you can be good at everything. You just have to be good at one thing.

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This thread is now a bit over a week old with over FOURTEEN THOUSAND VIEWS!! and less than one hundred replies.
Which tells me a lot of people are probably feeling very similarly, and that there is some really good advice in here.

One of the things that gets me through my very not fun job is hearing my co-workers having the same issues as me. Knowing I’m not the only one frustrated and fed up makes it somehow easier to deal with those feelings, that alone relieves a bit of stress.

Also stuff like this[quote=“lionel-rowe, post:24, topic:123623”]
Did it make you look like you had your backend on your frontend?
[/quote] :clap:…:clap:…:clap:…:clap:

(that’s a slow clap BTW)

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…I would love to learn programming, but I feel very discouraged…
…I’m not a natural IT nerd…
…I AM the wife…

even if you will not be able to make it as a top notch superhero developer (you’ll definitely be able to perform as a part of a team), just imagine how much you could support and be connected with your offsprings by possessing knowledge (as much as you can handle) of how this stuff works by the time when they grow up.
you don’t have to be passionate about IT, you don’t have to know it all, just be passionate about your kids - not the worst motivation imo.

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@geekysmurf Thank you so much for all your answers, you’re amazing :slight_smile: You are right about the doing stuff for free, it’s especially an issue for me, because I have a tendency to always offer my help for free and sometimes refuse even when people offer me money.
Regarding to charging hundreds or thousands of dollars for websites, would you say people are more inclined to hire somebody that has more computing related education vs somebody that has no degree in programming or computer science?
And another thing I am curious about (sorry for piling so many questions on you) - as a freelancer, how much SEO stuff do you need to know or how much SEO stuff do clients ask you for?

Thank you everyone else for encouragement!